Keegan outgrew a childhood stutter, until a traumatic event triggered its return

Transcript

Maya Chupkov:

Welcome to Proud Stutter, a show about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity in an effort to change how we talk about it one conversation at a time.

So Keegan, I am so happy that you're here because you are a Bay Area person just like me and I love meeting people who live in the Bay Area because it's just. It's just so fun and there's going to be so many opportunities to meet in a person. How are you doing?

Keegan Murphy:

Great. No, I appreciate the invite, Maya. And uh, I have to say my SLP referenced you and your podcast and that's when I made the connection and was kind of entered.

Interested in joining the podcast. So I'm really excited to be here.

Maya:

Yes, and that's definitely the goal. So first, I know you had a stutter when you were younger and then grew out of it, and then you had, and then you had it again. So can you walk us through kind of those chain of e events and how it's impacted you?

Keegan:

Sure, of course. Yeah, my stuttering is complex and I think frustrating like it is for for most people, right? Everyone stutter, I think is unique to themselves. And I think for me as a child, I think as most children, you don't know what stuttering is. And my earliest member memory of stuttering. Was that, I think it was something like the third or fourth grade, I would be taken away from class and go to this small room, and this nice lady would talk to me, and I would, you know, read sentences, read books, and I didn't really understand what was happening.

And then, uh, that eventually stopped, and I became a teenager, and for me, uh, I grew out of my stutter. I didn't have any stutter, uh, or issues or challenges with fluency. And, it was an afterthought, and I went through that for the majority of my teenage years. And then basically what happened is that, uh, in going into my junior year in high school, uh, I had, uh, a traumatic event that involved my family that caused me to miss the first half of my junior year, actually.

And, you know, through those three or four months, basically what happened was that I suffered, uh, from depression and anxiety, uh, as well as my stutter came back. And it was almost like a switch. I went from perfect fluency one day to, uh, I couldn't even form a sentence. So I think if, you know, Maya, if you would have met me during that time, I couldn't even speak with you because I could, I truly could not put together more than a couple of words without, uh, without stuttering.

Maya:

Yes. I, I remember the periods in my life where my stutter really ramped up a lot and I, I I literally could not speak, so I definitely can relate to that. So what, what happened with, with your stutter over time? I had experienced a period in my life where I had no challenges with speaking and, you know, had no limitations.

And then. Out of nowhere, I had the stutter again. And I think emotionally that was really hard for me to process because I just kept thinking, why can't I just go back to this other version of myself or why can't I just speak, right? I mean, I, I was just speaking without a stutter. Weeks or months ago. So what exactly happened?

Keegan:

So from that point on, and that was, you know, well over 10 years ago, I have always had a stutter, always had challenges with my fluency. And I think for me, it's certainly improved, uh, but it's, it's always there in the back of my mind and. Uh, it, it, earlier, I, I, I was really frustrated about that because again, I kept thinking about this pre and post version of myself that existed and it really bothered me that there were these two different versions that I thought existed and I think my journey with stuttering has, has, uh, mainly been focused on just acceptance and not only acceptance with myself, but acceptance.

That, uh, you know, the past is our past, and I think, uh, what we all can do from that is learn the lessons that we, we do learn, um, you know, hopefully live the best version of ourselves. And what is stuttering like for you today? Stuttering today for me is certainly much better than it was back then, and a lot of that has just stemmed from growing, growing older, being more comfortable with myself, and Truthfully, just having a lot of experiences with someone who stutters, right?

I mean, after a while, you hopefully become less, less self conscious about it and just hopefully love and accept yourself. And I think for me, that was a lot of the work that I had to do. And I mean, I still have, uh, fluency issues to this day or moments where people react to you in a way I'm sure we've all experienced.

And I think you just have to build that foundation and kind of fortify yourself because. I think stuttering is one of those conditions that, uh, people just don't understand, they don't know how to react to and I think there is a big element of education and just exposure that, uh, still lacks today in this world even though I think we've made a lot of progress in other areas.

Maya:

And how do you think having a stutter has, has shaped you? Like how has it shaped your, your life and how you go about things?

Keegan:

How that shaped my life was that, of course, You know, if you stutter, I feel like you make your decision matrix is different, right? I mean, you tend to avoid certain situations or careers.

I think for me, when I was going through college and even in the professional world, there were certain tasks or certain roles that I would avoid at all costs, right? I think for me earlier, you know, for example, I was talking on the phone, right? I mean, it's something that most people would just. Consider an afterthought or a simple task is, you know, introducing yourself and saying, you know, hello, my name is Keegan.

Right. I mean, I, I, I couldn't even do that. So I think, uh, you know, any job that you had to talk on the phone, I avoided. Which of course, you know, every job you have to do that, right? Yeah, no, totally. I've definitely had jobs where I've had to talk a lot, um, including the one I have now, especially on the phone and Zoom.

Maya:

Um, so. How did you navigate stuttering in the workplace? D d d d did you seek out any help? What helped was just exposure therapy, right?

Keegan:

Like, taking that in small doses, and then realizing that it's okay, right? It's okay to have a disfluency or stutter, uh, and not to be so critical or hard on yourself. Um, and that, that took me a lot of time to, again, accept that version of myself, and, uh, I think it's really helped me through my journey with stuttering to the point where, to this day, uh, I feel like most people that meet me don't know that I stutter unless I'm in a particular circumstance or situation, and Even that sometimes can be frustrating, right?

Because it's someone who's maybe known you for a while, uh, who doesn't think you stutter, then you stutter. I've had negative reactions, people asking you like, you know, what's going on, Keegan? Like, they're not understanding what's happening. And yeah, I've had to deal with challenges like that, too, as well.

Maya:

You mentioned a bunch of things I want to respond to. The first one is You talking about two versions of yourself, which I think as covert stutters and even especially for someone in your case who you know had this childhood stutter grew out of it and then because of a Traumatic incident it came back kind of switched on And so I think and for me being a covert stutter how my stutter shows up is you know, I can be fluent for a certain amount of time and then All of a sudden, I'm stuttering, and so I, I'm also battling those two d different d versions of, of myself.

And the second thing that you touched on too was, um, like, I think the only way that we're really going to help build understanding around stuttering is to stutter more because and it's kind of counterintuitive because I think we were trained our whole life maybe psychologically through all these like negative and Portrayals of stuttering we we've been kind of taught by society our whole life that stuttering is bad And all these things and so the more we hear that the more we want to hide it And so the more we hide it the more how are we gonna like have people understand it?

and so I think there's like two really big things that need to happen in order for us stutters to feel like understood and that's one, just getting rid of all those negative stereotypes so that the younger generation doesn't feel that same way. And two just talk about stuttering more and being open about your stutter. So, um, like, are there any like ticks or like things that you've learned over time?

Keegan:

Um, that, that has kind of contributed to hiding your stutter because as both, as both, as both people who can pass as fluent, I'm sure, like I've heard of so many interesting ways that we go about hiding our stutter. Of course, yeah.

Uh, and, uh, if my speech therapist was here, um, shout out to Allie at Speech Bubble, she would be very excited to hear what I'm about to talk about, but, uh, I think for me, my, you know, uh, ways to cope with it was that I would do word substitutions. What I'm constantly doing when I'm talking to somebody is I'm, I know what I want to say, and then I, I communicate that, but if I come across a word where I feel like I'm going to stutter, or if I have a blockage, which is more how my stutter manifests, I have to quickly switch out the word with some other synonym.

I have to, I have to work so much harder to communicate the most basic ideas. Uh, where the people just take that for granted. So, you know, that was one way that I coped. And others is, I think, very similar to what people have said, or it's just avoidance, right? You just avoid, uh, interactions or engagements that require speaking, right?

And I think, uh, to some extent, that can be helpful. But then That has other ramifications in your life. Well, and I know you eventually sought help via Speech therapist, so I'm wondering how did you come to that decision? I ultimately sought speech therapy because I was at a point where I was tired of being ashamed of my stutter or tired of Letting my stutter, uh, control or dictate how my life is.

I feel like I'm fluent, and then, again Uh, on a flip of a switch, you have a disfluency, and then what do you do, right? Like, how do you, uh, how do you overcome that, right? So, one of my challenges is introductions, for example. I mean, those terrify me to some extent because, you know, something as simple as saying, Hello, my name is Keegan, and, you know, what is your name?

Uh, I just said it now, but if we were, if you and I just met on the street, I may not be able to say that. So then I have to get through that, that period of silence or that period of me stuttering to say that. And I think that was really challenging for me because it. You know, it disrupts the flow of communication, but it also, it doesn't allow you to start a conversation with confidence.

So I think that's something I really had to work on. And to your point about stuttering more, I mean, that's how I improved. My introductions was just stuttering with it. I think. Going back to people who stutter, I mean, we've all experienced negative reactions to stuttering and I have so many in my personal and professional life where people don't know how to react.

Maya:

Oh, yeah, I'm sure. I mean I feel like a broken record. I can relate. Um, and I'm sure a lot of, uh, stutters out there can too. Can you give us an example of when that happened to, to, to, to you?

Keegan:

I was, uh, I was at work and I was meeting a new coworker of mine who I never met. I was with another coworker who had known me for several years, and of course we did introductions, and I couldn't say Keegan, so I stuttered through it and eventually said Keegan.

But while I was stuttering through it, the coworker who knew me, who didn't know me as someone who stuttered, stopped and asked if I was having a stroke because they didn't understand what was happening and. That can be really painful, right? Because, you know, you're stuttering and someone just accuses you of having a stroke.

How do you process that? I have so many stories like that where people react negatively to it. And I think it's really important to push back and really, um, you know, react in a way that I think is appropriate to the situation, right? Where if there's Uh, some sort of cordial response or social etiquette that's being violated, like someone accusing you of being a stroke, having a stroke, I think that then gives you guys to say, however you want to react, but how I would react is say, no, I'm not having a stroke, I'm, I stutter, please give me a moment, and You know, I'll say what I want to say, so I think, for me, I was always so subconscious of admitting that, because one, I was ashamed of stuttering for whatever reason, and two, I think it's really important to let people know that if you're someone who stutters and you have a reaction like that, I think it's um, important to say to someone who reacts a negative way that, that isn't okay, because it's not, right?

Because if that person's doing it to you, they're gonna do it to someone else. And, um, I had to be okay with that because in my world, etiquette's important, right? Because I work in corporate America and being confrontational as someone who stutters can be pretty terrifying because you're inviting conflict to an uncomfortable situation.

But more importantly, you're putting more attention on your stuttering. As someone who stutters, I never wanted to bring any attention to my stuttering. I just wanted to be, you know, normal and just fluent and Uh, I wanted to avoid any other attention or any other, um, any, any other way to highlight something that may be different.

And it wasn't until that, it wasn't until I overcame that feeling and belief system that ironically my stutter improved and I was able to communicate more fluently. And the other challenge I had with stuttering, and to some extent I still do, is Um, I learned this term in speech therapy was fluency chasing.

I think, uh, I think we all do that to some extent, right? Where, uh, you're so fixated on communicating in a way that you desire that the more attention you, you focus on it, the The more, um, the more disfluent you become, right? And it all becomes like a self defeating cycle. So, there's just a lot of challenges, and obviously we all stutter in varying degrees.

And I think that the first step people have to take is just self acceptance. And Being okay with who they are and where they're at in their journey.

Maya:

Yeah. No, I I agree with all of that and um, and you you you mentioned the workplace and I'm in um, i'm wondering if you can talk about stuttering in the workplace because um in my previous jobs, I just Did not tell anyone I had a stutter.

I just felt very self conscious about it, and I think it Impacted not like my work, but just the way I thought about myself as a Professional like I just always thought that I was never gonna be like a good worker because of my stutter uh, but now I don't Feel that way, but but i'm wondering if you can talk about your journey through the workplace and if you can talk about your current workplace and how you've I've been able to like navigate all of that with your stutter.

Keegan:

Uh, I have a lot of, uh, similar, or had a lot of similar feelings as you with stuttering and I viewed it as me being not as intelligent as others, right? I had that belief system that I was seeing these people Communicate in these, uh, very elaborate and fluent ways. That was really challenging for me because in my world, you know, I'm giving presentations all the time.

I'm client facing, so I'm interacting with clients. So presenting yourself in a particular manner is important to some extent, right? Because not only am I representing my personal brand, but I'm representing the company, right? You know, being able to communicate in a particular way that achieves a particular outcome is really critical.

So, uh, in my current role, it's really the only role that I've really acknowledged my stutter in a public setting. Um, and, and, and even working towards, uh, creating an internal group for other employees who stutter or deal with other issues. And that was a big step for me because I think prior to that, I had always tried to shun the idea of admitting that I stuttered, right?

Because again, it was, for me, it was the idea of. The shame and guilt for stuttering and, you know, anybody who stutters shouldn't be shameful of how they speak or if they speak differently than other people because You know, we all have a story and we all have these belief systems And I think ultimately what starting comes down to in my opinion is self acceptance, right?

You have to accept accept who you are and again acknowledge where you're at

Maya:

So you you mentioned you work in the corporate world and I I used to work in the corporate world, too And now I work at a large nonprofit And there's all these talks about diversity, equity, and inclusion, right?

I don't, I mean, I'm sure it's in your work, too.

Um, but nowhere in the diversity, equity, and inclusion conversation is stuttering. Or, like, even speech impediments, for that matter. Every once in a while I hear Disability get mentioned but even Disabilities don't really get mentioned as much as they should in this DEI Conversations, so I'm wondering Like, as it relates to your work, because you're in the corporate world, like how do you see stuttering in the context of like DEI and what you want to see more out of like more workplaces?

Keegan:

Sure. Sure. I'm happy you asked that and you have great timing because in the context of DEI initiatives, as you know, corporate America is, is trying to stand up that effort. And, uh, I had a really great conversation with. Someone I admire that is from the say organization which is based on the east coast and there's some people out here in the bay area and uh They have a speaking series where people talk about You know, their careers and their experiences with stuttering.

And I reached out to one of the people in that speaking series, and they were gracious enough to give me their time to talk about, uh, how they evolved to stuttering and also how they evolved in a corporate world. Cause they, um, were older than me and had success, which is similar to the question I think you're asking.

And one of the, uh, one of the aspects they mentioned about stuttering, which I think if people, people who stutter know this, is that speech therapy isn't covered by insurance. Most insurances don't cover it at all. And this person had communicated that one of the initiatives they did at their work was to raise awareness about stuttering and how it affects people.

And ultimately, they got their company to change their insurance policy to cover speech therapy. And that, that really inspired me and it, it got me to thinking, you know, what, what is my insurance cover? And what I, one of my goals and what I've done is that I have started a new, uh, you know, employer resource group at where I work, uh, for people who are neurodiverse and that's a very broad spectrum.

In that spectrum is people who stutter right or have speech impediments And one of my goals of starting that organization My hope is is not only to raise awareness about stuttering and help you interact and hopefully give people a forum to You know either voice their concerns or just feel more accepted.

But ultimately I want to Advocate for my company to hopefully cover speech therapy and their insurance because I think for whatever reason speech therapy I think not speech therapy, but speech impediments are so wildly misunderstood that People just don't have any awareness or they don't have any social etiquette of how to react around it and I think for people who stutter we've all experienced the spectrum of reactions and being an advocate I think is not something everyone wants to do who stutters right because I think a lot of people just want to feel normal and be fluent but you know I think whatever people can do to just advocate for yourself and really be comfortable with who you are and whether that's admitting you stutter or whether that's joining a group whatever it may be I think it's really important because This is an ongoing challenge for people like us.

And I think, uh, you know, any small change that you can do, whether it's professionally in your workplace as it relates to DEI or personally, I think makes a difference, right? So I don't know the outcome of this group that I'm starting or how it in falls on the umbrella of DEI, but there's a need for it.

And I think for me, I view it as an opportunity to contribute to something that's very meaningful to me. And hopefully. I can help inspire other people to either reach out or just be more open with the challenges they have, whether it's speech impediments or, you know, some other disability that they're currently experiencing.

And I think, you know, if I can do that and this group helps with that, then, you know, I think I have hopefully, you know, made a difference. I, I mean, I'm excited because I've never done anything like this and I've certainly never. openly admitted, especially at work that I stutter. So I think, kind of, I've already had conversations with some of my co workers and my supervisors, and again, they don't know that I stutter because I think I am so fluid.

So I think, uh, just creating that space is, right now, where I'm at, is really important for me. And I think the more we can organize within, like, Either our workplace or in other aspects of our lives. I think the more Difference will make

Maya:

I think it would be wonderful to like to help, you know expand this Dei narrative to include stuttering and the whole interviewing System needs to change and be more accommodating to people who stutter.

Keegan:

Yeah, I mean, I, I, I don't know, the thing is, I don't know how to improve that, I guess, as I'm thinking about it, right? Because, unfortunately, people have biases, right? So, I mean, really, what you're asking is, how do we overcome interviewers who have biases or preconceived notions? And, from that standpoint, I mean, that is work that individuals themselves who carry those biases and, uh, preconceived notions have to work on, right?

So if, if, if you're someone who stutters or, again, has some, some, some other disability, right? I think the, a lot of weight is placed on people who stutter because I feel like, at least for me, for the longest time, I always felt like I didn't want to be an advocate. I didn't want to be the person that walked around and when I stuttered I wanted to tell people hey I stuttered give me a second because I didn't want that conversation, I didn't want that attention, but then my position evolved to the point where I feel like as I became more comfortable with my stutter and I feel like again I accepted myself more, I realized that it's really important you That we educate people in our lives that, again, have these biases, whether it's towards stuttering or, uh, whether it's towards, again, some other, some other bias, because that's ultimately, I think, how you make a difference in this world, right?

And I think so many people have these grandiose gestures and ideals and, you know, we build out these, you know, 15 step multi year plans because we want to make a difference. But in reality You can make a difference right now in the world by just interacting with people and just raising awareness. It's okay to open yourself up to.

That discomfort, right, because, uh, I think people with stutter have this preconceived notion that we're the ones that have to be polite and we're the ones that, again, have to follow this social etiquette or these unspoken rules of communication. But if you're at that point where you are comfortable, I think you're going to notice changes within yourself and you're going to notice a newfound perspective when it comes to communicating and you'll just be more confident and comfortable and accepting with who you are.

Maya:

Yeah. Yeah. That's. I, that's all like, I totally relate to all of that. And Keegan, thank you so much for being here and sharing your story.

I think. It's so important to talk about all these things and I just appreciate years of your vulnerability and for you emailing me Of course. Yeah, I guess one other thing.

Keegan:

I just want to say about stuttering is that the journey is never over and I think there's always an opportunity to change and You know, to find herself on a new path. So, uh, thank you so much Maya for, uh, inviting me on the podcast. I really enjoyed it. And I just, I hope someone found my story helpful.

Maya:

And that's it for this episode of Proud Stutter. This episode of Proud Stutter was produced and edited by me, Maya Chupkov. Our music was composed by Augusto Diniz and our artwork by Mara Ezekiel and Noah Chupkov. If you have an idea or want to be part of a future episode, visit us at www. proudstutter.com. And if you like the show, you can leave us a review wherever you are listening to this podcast. Want to leave us a voicemail? Check out our show notes for the number to call in. More importantly, tell your friends to listen too. Until we meet again, thanks for listening. Be proud and be you.